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Refusal?

Re: Refusal?

Postby Peka » 04 May 2018 16:23

:( That is a really sad story. That was no holiday for that gentleman. If the worst happened the blame game would have definitely started.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby tomvet » 04 May 2018 17:08

Can you deny boarding on grounds of disability? Is that not discrimination? I expect the cruiseline will look the other way and allow the pax to board. EU Reg 1177/2010/EU mandates the sea travel provider to provide non- discriminatory treatment and specific free of charge assistance for disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility both at port terminals and on board ships as well as compensation for loss / damage to their mobility equipment.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby khkate » 05 May 2018 18:55

I would think with any cruise line, they can only allow a certain number of people with reduced mobility on board - because in the event of an emergency they need to know they have sufficient personnel on board to deal with them. I also know that for us - although H is not reduced mobility, but has dementia - I have to confirm that he will be travelling with an "able" carer. As that is me, I can safely respond in the affirmative at present.

I would say that this is the crux of the matter in this case - is the person travelling with an "able" carer - and of course, have they notified their insurer and the cruise line/ship. Regarding the EU directive - below is a quote from Fred Olsen's Ts and Cs - Saga's Ts and Cs are almost the same same, so I assume any other cruise line would be the same,

12.1.3 In accordance with EU Regulation EU1177/2010, FOCL reserves the right to refuse carriage and/or embarkation and/or disembarkation if, in FOCL’s reasonable opinion, the design of the vessel and/or the port infrastructure and/or the nature of a holiday at sea and/or any equipment required by the Passenger would make carriage unsafe or operationally unfeasible or if embarkation or disembarkation of the Passenger would risk a breach of national or international maritime safety standards.

12.1.4 It is Passengers’ responsibility to keep FOCL informed of any issue that poses a difficulty in relation to their mobility and/or physical capability on-board, whether this arises before or after the time of booking or during the Holiday.


Thus maritime safety is paramount for all. And like Hazel, we have also encountered the same type of thing. On one of our cruises last year, there was a single gent travelling on his own in the cabin next door to us. During the cruise, it became very clear to the crew and medical team that he could not cope on his own - and he was actually removed from the ship at one of the ports of call and flown home. It is sad when this type of thing happens, but far safer for all parties concerned - and other passengers too.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby tomvet » 05 May 2018 20:27

Lets look at the EU Regulation

It has defined a disabled person thus:

‘disabled person’ or ‘person with reduced mobility’ means any person whose mobility when using transport is reduced as a result of any physical disability (sensory or locomotor, permanent or temporary), intellectual disability or impairment, or any other cause of disability, or as a result of age, and whose situation needs appropriate attention and adaptation to his particular needs of the service made available to all passengers;


Clearly your aquaintance fallls within this definition.

THe persons right to travel is clearly outline in Article 7

1.
Carriers, travel agents and tour operators shall not refuse toaccept a reservationb o issue or otherwise provide a ticket or toembark persons on the grounds of disability or of reduced mobility as such.
2.
Reservations and tickets shall be offered to disabled persons and persons with with reduced mobility at no
additional cost under the same conditions that apply to all other passengers.


BUT life is never that clear and Article 8 of the Regulation is the 'get out of jail clause for the carrier' and that is what FOCL has quoted in its T&Cs

By way of derogation from Article 7(1), carriers, travel agents and tour operators may refuse to accept a reservation from, to issue or otherwise provide a ticket to or to embark a disabled person or person with reduced mobility:
(a)in order to meet applicable safety requirements established by international, Union or national law in order to meet safety requirements established by the competent authorities;
(b) where the design of the passenger ship or port infrastructure and equipment, including port terminals, makes it impossible to carry out the embarkation, disembarkation or carriage of the said person in a safe or operationally feasible manner


However, I interpret this as that FOCL can not have a blanket policy on this regard and each case has to be assessed on its merits and laws change from country to country, the ships are different, port infrastructure is different from port to port. So not the get out of jail clause the cruiselines would like to think. If I was refused travel on this ground I would like to see the documented risk assessment of my condition alongside one for each port that I am proposed to travel to before accepting the refusal.

Should they deny the booking, it is not over for cruiseline yet and FOCL do not refer to this clause - the onus on to offer an alternative. Surely their T&C would go like this - we reserve the right to refuse on grounds X and Y but should we do so we will offer an alternative in accordance with the Regulation.

2. In the event of a refusal to accept a reservation or to issue or otherwise provide a ticket on the grounds referred to in paragraph 1, carriers, travel agents and tour operators shall make all reasonable efforts to propose to the person concerned an acceptable alternative transport on a passenger service or a cruise operated by the carrier


Remember that cruise line T&Cs are written so they favour the cruiseline and not the passenger. They may not be legal. The public genreally accepts the ' that our policy' or 'there are our T&Cs' and go away defeated. Sometimes one has to fight their corner. I think the cruiseline may have to accept this booking because I accept they have not completed their homework in relation to risk assessments or offering an alternative.

Furthermore, it the carrier mandates that the person be accompanied - the accompanying person is to be carried FOC!!!! :D :D
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Re: Refusal?

Postby sparkiethecruiser » 06 May 2018 21:31

tomvet wrote:Can you deny boarding on grounds of disability? Is that not discrimination? I expect the cruiseline will look the other way and allow the pax to board. EU Reg 1177/2010/EU mandates the sea travel provider to provide non- discriminatory treatment and specific free of charge assistance for disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility both at port terminals and on board ships as well as compensation for loss / damage to their mobility equipment.


they can and they will on grounds of safety if they feel that the person cannot safely be on the ship. As they can only have a certain amount of reduced mobility and sensory impaired person on board and they only need to make reasonable adjustments. Trust me Tom its in my job description to know about this sort of thing. Terms and condition of the contract states that all reduced mobility and sensory impaired person must notify the cruiseline at time of booking and that an able bodied person must travel with them and assume responsability for them.

Disabilty act is trumped by the health and safety act and health and safety at work act and maritime laws. As safety of passengers and crew must come first its only discrimination if they refuse them boarding despite them meeting all the health safety requirements.

They have to have a crew member who specifially allocated to a person with a disability or sensory impairment for emergencies in the event they need to evacutate the ship and they have only a limited number of crew who are trainned and would be available for that job. They cannot allocate crew if they don't know before you arrive at the ship.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby tomvet » 06 May 2018 21:53

sparkiethecruiser wrote:
tomvet wrote:Can you deny boarding on grounds of disability? Is that not discrimination? I expect the cruiseline will look the other way and allow the pax to board. EU Reg 1177/2010/EU mandates the sea travel provider to provide non- discriminatory treatment and specific free of charge assistance for disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility both at port terminals and on board ships as well as compensation for loss / damage to their mobility equipment.


they can and they will on grounds of safety if they feel that the person cannot safely be on the ship. As they can only have a certain amount of reduced mobility and sensory impaired person on board and they only need to make reasonable adjustments. Trust me Tom its in my job description to know about this sort of thing. Terms and condition of the contract states that all reduced mobility and sensory impaired person must notify the cruiseline at time of booking and that an able bodied person must travel with them and assume responsability for them.

Disabilty act is trumped by the health and safety act and health and safety at work act and maritime laws. As safety of passengers and crew must come first its only discrimination if they refuse them boarding despite them meeting all the health safety requirements.

They have to have a crew member who specifially allocated to a person with a disability or sensory impairment for emergencies in the event they need to evacutate the ship and they have only a limited number of crew who are trainned and would be available for that job. They cannot allocate crew if they don't know before you arrive at the ship.


I take your point and I know I am changing focus a tad but I have travelled on a plane with severely disabled persons on board to a pilgrimage to Lourdes. It took 4 hours to board the plane.I can guarantee you if required that aircraft would not have been evacuated.

Regarding the rigts of persons travelling at sea - what you say maybe the case but the Regs state if the carrier mandates a carer to travel woth the pax - then the carer travels free. If they are denied a particular cruise, they must be offered an alternative. THE point is that a 'Sorry you cannot travel now go away' should nt wash - the carrier at least must be forced to document their decision and to doument that they have taken all reasonable steps re: an accompanying person / alternative cruise.

I am not sure if the Disability Acti is trumped by the H&S Act - under the H&S Act one is obliged to carry out risk assessments taking a persons disability into acount. H&S and now Data Protection are the great excuses not to do anything.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby khkate » 08 May 2018 11:36

Get off your hobby horse TV - like sparkie says, maritime safety is paramount. I can just imagine you having a major debate/argument on the quayside with all the ships personnel and captain. And of course, if the ship is registered in the US, its another ball game.
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Re: Refusal?

Postby Borneo » 08 May 2018 12:16

khkate wrote:Get off your hobby horse TV - like sparkie says, maritime safety is paramount. I can just imagine you having a major debate/argument on the quayside with all the ships personnel and captain. And of course, if the ship is registered in the US, its another ball game.



:lol: :lol:
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Re: Refusal?

Postby tomvet » 08 May 2018 19:08

khkate wrote:Get off your hobby horse TV - like sparkie says, maritime safety is paramount. I can just imagine you having a major debate/argument on the quayside with all the ships personnel and captain. And of course, if the ship is registered in the US, its another ball game.


Why would you ever need to imagine that, surely your life could not be that dull then again, perhaps it is! :shock: :shock:

Even if there was a robust debate the final arbitrators would be the courts and not Nanny McPhee or anyother random person. It has nothing to do with where the ship is registered and all to do with where the ticket is sold!

Remember the courts found against Costa's mandatory service charge - they cannot charge it to persons who purchase tickets in Germany but can if the ticket is sold in the UK - nothing to do with the ships registry, all to do with where the ticket was sold. They are obliged to put it in the headline price. (translated below for your convenience!!!!)

Im Reisepreis eingeschlossen:

Alle Mahlzeiten an Bord
Alle Trinkgelder an Bord [All tips on board]
Gepäckbeförderung bei Ein- und Ausschiffung
Hafengebühren und Steuern
Nutzung der meisten Bordeinrichtungen
Reisepreis-Sicherungsschein
Unterhaltungsprogramm an Bord
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Refusal?

Postby Peka » 09 May 2018 15:47

I was just browsing Fred's site for something unrelated and came across this at the bottom of the page.

fredterm.jpg


oops I should have cropped that. but it does enlarge


from https://www.fredolsencruises.com/legal/terms-and-conditions
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